After 24 hours of 'Brain-testing', I Feel a Reasonable Solution is at Hand
Published on February 21, 2010 By ScottTykoski In Elemental Dev Journals
Of all the aspects of Elemental, none seem to strike a nerve quite like the handling of cities.  Automation, size, uniqueness, too many in the world or too few...everyone has their take on how cities should feel. I believe, above all else, the worlds and nations of Elemental need to grow in a manner parallel to how RPS maps feel...in other words, elimination city spam without eliminating the joys of city building.
 
To that end, we're doing something that (I believe) hasn't been done before, and that is putting City Creation right on the main map.  You're placing buildings and slowly taking up precious land in the world around you. Pinch points can be established and cities can grow WELL beyond the single tile that most 4x games limit you to. I personally love it, and want to make sure the system continues to improve and refine as we inch towards gold.
 
Several concerns have arisen, however, and I've been mulling over these issues, mentioned by beta testers, that makes the current system lame.
 
1. Building a city, and suddenly running out of tiles with no way to get more.
 
2. Plopping down an outpost to harvest a resource 4 tiles from another city.
 
3. Forcing the player Snaking a trail of small improvements over to
 
4. Easily growing and reaching new city levels, where all outposts will eventually become huge cities.
 
and
 
5. Even though it costs Essence to make land livable, city spam is still completely viable in Elemental.
 
These make us sad, and while there have been many solutions presented to improve the system, I wanted to throw my own into the mix as a way to fix these problems AND tie into the other game mechanics (remember Sid's rule "Complex system's aren't fun - instead, make simple systems that intertwine in interesting ways."*).
 
* - I really shouldn't put that in quotes since that was the gist of what he said...but it was something like that.

So I present to you...
 
 
My proposed 'Heroes as Governors' system!!!
 
Basically, we'd add a stat to Champions: Governing. This would be a value (0 - 5), that determines two things...
 
1. How high of a city that hero can govern, and...
2. How many tiles their cities can grow to.
 
The system would work as such...you lay down a city, and in the naming of your new outpost you'd get to assign an available unit as that cities 'governor'. This unit wouldn't have to be stationed there permanent, but for every city placed you'd need a Hero or Family Member to lead it (with most units giving some bonus when they WERE stationed in a city).
 
Need a resource tapped? Just start an outpost and have Ranger Billy govern it. It'll never go above a level 1, unless you determine it's a crucial location, at which point you re-assign a better governor and build the city up.
 
Governor dies in battle? Several things could happen...
- If you have an unassigned hero with a governing level >= the fallen unit, then you could assign them to the orphaned settlement. 
- Have enough essence and you can spend that to bring the Governor unit back to life (with the obvious magical consequences that spending essence results in)
- or, if these aren't available, the Succession system kicks in and the city is given to the a neighbor capable of handling the settlement
 
So, a straightforward system that ties the major game component into the hero, magic, diplomacy, and dynasty system.
 
Pushing my luck, I also propose the following...
 

Allowing resource tapping improvements, and them only, to be built away from the main city hub.  The obvious benefits that you wouldn't have to build another city to tap it, AND you wouldn't have to 'snake' your improvements to get there, but the improvement WOULD NOT be defended by whatever walls and stationed units the city had available, so there's a major risk in doing so.s
 
While I like some of the ideas of treating resource taping like the starbases in GC2, I really don't want to start 'mixing systems' where city's are handled like X and colonies are handled like Y.
 
Anyways, that's just MY personal idea on the whole matter. Does it solve all issues current and future? Certainly not, but hopefully it'd put us one step closer to a truly unique and engaging system for building both your cities and your nation.

Comments (Page 15)
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on Feb 24, 2010

Fresh water should also be a major factor in growth because water is pretty much needed for anything to grow naturally. Settling near water has always been one of the major strategies in settling, and even to this day coastal regions or regions near rivers are more densely populated than dry inland regions.

on Feb 24, 2010

A few thoughts here:

 

The most blindingly obvious solution to me is to require essence to found all cities, not just cities on barren land.  It's quite simple to understand, and would limit city spam quite effectively tghanks ot the hard limit from essence.  The cost on rejuvenated land might be less than barren land, and would need balancing, but would still be there.  As others have said, the other uses for essence also come into play here.

 

I really, realyl like the idea of having resource buildings buildable away from cities, and am somewhat surprised this wasn't the original plan.

on Feb 24, 2010

The problem with "essence-costing each time, even on revived land" is that it doesn't make sense at all. If you have revived the land, and have enough people to found a new city, why couldn't you do it ?

Or another idea : why not an infinite tech "New city". You have a limited number of available cities. You want one more ? Research the tech. It would simulate the fact that new cities aren't built just because a leader want it, but beacause some people need to find new place to live. The civilization breakthrough woud mean you tried hard to push your citizens to expand through a new town.

Or you can have a city per 2 or 3 level in civilization. It's limited, but you can still get a new one if you want. No hard limit.

 

 

on Feb 24, 2010

"Oh wise men, please tell us where to live next!"

'Yes, we will tell you, come back in a little bit."

"Wise men, have you found the answer yet?"

"Not quite yet, in a bit."

"Now?"

"NOT YET!"

*years later*

"Come my friends. We can found a new city... Right over there, near the other end of the giant lake."

"Oh wisest of men, you are indeed the grandest of all."

on Feb 24, 2010

Shurdus
"Oh wise men, please tell us where to live next!"

'Yes, we will tell you, come back in a little bit."

"Wise men, have you found the answer yet?"

"Not quite yet, in a bit."

"Now?"

"NOT YET!"

*years later*

"Come my friends. We can found a new city... Right over there, near the other end of the giant lake."

"Oh wisest of men, you are indeed the grandest of all."

That could be the case with a nation that focus on magic :

"Oh wise men where should we go next ?"

"Dunno. I'm working on a new way to blast things."

"Oh. We'll be eating cookies while you think hard, wise-one"

on Feb 24, 2010

Having pop controlled by one thing would be best. Having multiple factors is just too complex for too little benefit. If we want water to have a big impact, just set it so that areas near water grow a lot more food.

on Feb 24, 2010

@ Outlaw, setting the import/export levels of food would be nice, although I don't think we are even having an economic system with that option. Its simply a hard Resource-Availability-Per-Turn from each networked source. This is why the Concurrent "Global Food/Pop Cap" idea is probably the most elegant and fits into the current system with the least amount of fuss.

 

We have been told by the dev team that the mechanics of the game can be changed fairly easily (as opposed to the Engine). Changing the way food operates (by taking it out of the economics/trading game and tying it directly into Prestige and Population) would, in my opinion, add ALOT to the game, especially in terms of having special, prized cities, and reducing city spam .... as well as having a more natural growth of only a few Prestigious centers of trade and many more outlying villages and hamlets.

Less homogenous, symettric, boring, and more interesting and Fun.

on Feb 24, 2010

There was an interesting book called "The Warded Man" in which demons came out every night.  There were economies of scale in warding buildings and ground (i.e., wards have to be maintained and there are a limited number of people with the skills to do so), hence you tended to have large cities and small outposts by critical resources.  Same basic theory - there's some limited resource needed for towns and there are significant economies of scale in its use.

on Feb 24, 2010

Outlaw
Quoting vieuxchat, reply 201Food isn't global. It's a per/town basis. But ! Caravans add a percentage of every town connected.

For instance you have two town A and B. Town A has 10 food, town B has 20 food. If a road exist between them, then town A get 10 food + 10% from food of town B (2) = 12 total food. Town B gets 20 + 10%  from town 1 (1) = 21. So roads are really important, and caravans delivers gold each time they arrive in a town.

Well now Im confused, since Tridus makes it sound like it works completely different. I am not in beta, so I can only go off what you guys in beta tell us.

Far as I know, that is how food works. Other resources are supposed to work the way vieux described, but I haven't seen it with food. Settlements without their own food don't seem to get a percentage of food, I can grow them to city with no problem (so maybe its 100%).

Could be that food in general just isn't fully implemented in that beta or something, I dunno. I do know that per town setting import/export is a lot like the economic system they already said they aren't doing, so it's pretty unlikely.

on Feb 24, 2010

I'd prefer food production and the various food resources weren't directly tied together.

 

If fertile ground is the only source of food, it's a highly unrealistic method, and takes away a lot of diversity in tactics when it comes to depriving production.  I'd much prefer various terrain types were contributors, and the fertile ground locations were simply high growth land.  You can grow food just about anywhere, you just can't grow it well.

 

I'd like farming and foraging in the nearby terrain to be something a portion of the peasants in the city do, automatically planting and harvesting fields in outlying valleys and other logical places, hunting in the forests, etcetera.  If it's an automatic process of the villagers, I don't have the fuck with it.  The existence of those things gives me added concerns to protect, and added targets to attack.

 

Perhaps even communities could be started around a settlement that worked the lands next to them to supply the populace, all automated so we don't kill ourselves over micromanagement.

on Feb 24, 2010

vieuxchat
The problem with "essence-costing each time, even on revived land" is that it doesn't make sense at all. If you have revived the land, and have enough people to found a new city, why couldn't you do it ?

I realize that it would be difficult to explain backstory wise, but the backstory can be easily adjusted with some sort of hand waving or other explanation, or it could just be considered one of those cases where gameplay trumps story.  The essence solution has quite a lot of gameplay advantages over the other solutions people have proposed, and that is enough to recommend that particular solution.

 

As for a story explanation, perhaps the corruption still seeps into the air, water, etc. and needs to be filtered.  Perhaps it's a tradition of suprerstition that cities have to have some sort of magical stone or ward to represent them.  I'm sure someone could come up with other story explanations for this mechanic if needed.

on Feb 24, 2010

Denryu
Lol, good point pigeonx2,

"Oh noes our mayor is killed! What shall we do?"

"I know, let's join the other side!"

/golfclap
So if you capture a city, garrison it and assign a governor, and the governor dies, there should be no chance the city flips back to the original empire?

Should a city never flip back to the original empire (other than recapture)?

If there should be a chance, what would trigger said chance?

on Feb 24, 2010

Shurdus
Fresh water should also be a major factor in growth because water is pretty much needed for anything to grow naturally. Settling near water has always been one of the major strategies in settling, and even to this day coastal regions or regions near rivers are more densely populated than dry inland regions.

Cerevox
Having pop controlled by one thing would be best. Having multiple factors is just too complex for too little benefit. If we want water to have a big impact, just set it so that areas near water grow a lot more food.

Water is ultimately the most important factor, in itself and also as it's necessary for farming.  However hard transporting food is, transporting sufficient water (other than canals/etc.) is harder.  Thus settling near water is more important than settling near food -- especially in a young empire where food distribution systems are lacking or poorly developed --  so water availability should be a more important factor in city siting.  I'd like to see water being necessary for city placement (magical sources are ok).

I disagree that having 2 factors (water and food) is too complex, but if it's decreed to be so, as food is a function of water (as Cerevox points out), I'd put water as pre-eminent.

on Feb 24, 2010

I think the city flipping is not that bad an idea, given the fact that the peasants were loyal to whomever happened to be lord. It is not like the peasants get to decide what side they would join. If the law says that the uncle of the late governor becomes the new governor and the new governor answers to a different king, then that is who the town belongs to. It sounds natural and logical to me.

In real life there were countless conflicts over who owned what lands because several lords may claim the very same land. Now you can tell me that cities should not switch because that makes little sense and such, but in fact it dos make a whole lot of sense.

on Feb 24, 2010

SolarBall
A few thoughts here:

 

The most blindingly obvious solution to me is to require essence to found all cities, not just cities on barren land.  It's quite simple to understand, and would limit city spam quite effectively tghanks ot the hard limit from essence.  The cost on rejuvenated land might be less than barren land, and would need balancing, but would still be there.  As others have said, the other uses for essence also come into play here.

 

I really, realyl like the idea of having resource buildings buildable away from cities, and am somewhat surprised this wasn't the original plan.

 

The problem with this is that it would encourage a very small number of super cities and not other settlements of any size. Simply because essence is so precious you would always want to get the most bang for your buck. A point of note is that the goal isn't just to eliminate city spam. The goal is to make an RPG-esque kingdom with few large cities and settlements of varying sizes as well as tiny outposts.

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